McDonald's in Saudi Arabia
A private bus line operating in Brooklyn in an orthodox Jewish community is upsetting people because asks its “precious Jewish daughters” to move aside when “a man approaches.” Specifically, women are asked to sit in the back while men sit in the front. We discussed this on Hey! That’s My Hummus in detail on the first segment of our show this past Tuesday, and I think both Mike and I had mixed feelings on the subject.
American Muslims are a community that, much like Jewish Americans, represent a broad range of interpretations when it comes to gender and relationships. I know of Muslim men who have been friends for several decades and have never seen the faces of their friend’s wives, mothers or sisters. At the same time, I know of Muslims who dispense with traditionally gender segregated congregational prayers.
Last year, I visited Saudi Arabia, a gender segregated society. Whether a water park or a McDonald’s, the spaces of men and women are conscientiously defined by law there. There are important details, though, that you’d only know about it you went there. Or because I told you. Which I will.
The separation in restaurants, for example, is not between “men” and “women.” It’s between “men unaccompanied by women” and “groups including men and women.” The term for women’s space in these public areas is usually “Family Section” and men are permitted to go there. Unaccompanied men may not enter the Family Section. Of course, women can not enter the “Men’s section” under any circumstances.
I have to share an interesting story. While in Saudi, we went to Mecca for Umrah, a mini-pilgrimage. There were thousands of people. The government has buses set up that run between the hotels and the Kabah. At the end of the day there were thousands of people trying to get on these buses which by the way, are not gender segregated. My mother in law, myself and my children got separated from the rest of our family, and decided we’d just take the bus back on our own and catch up with everyone later.
We scrambled onto a bus and to make a long story short, my daughter and mother in law sat in the back, I handed my baby to a strange woman in the front row and then stood in front her holding a hand rail. There was a man behind me. This man was a total pervert. Perverts can apparently go to Mecca, too. Seriously. I mean, it’s not like there’s some kind of pervert detecting security device there.
Anyway, the bus was packed and every time it jostled, this guy would “accidentally” brush up against me in a very inappropriate way. At first, I thought it was an accident. The second time, I looked him right in the eye and said, “Back UP.” He grinned at me and shrugged his shoulders. (Can you call someone a bastard when you’re telling an Umrah story? Just a question.) The third time, a woman who was sitting next to where he was standing dramatically placed her purse in between me and the man.
Suffice to say, I understand the merits of gender segregation on public transit. I would also like to point out the extremely interesting point that despite having spent my entire life in the United States, a society which, aside from restrooms, practices virtually no gender segregation, that the first time something like this happened to me was in Saudi Arabia.
I’m not saying that means something. I’m just saying it’s kind of fascinating.
Despite my public transit horror story, I’m uncomfortable by this concept of women’s limited access to public space anywhere in the United States. First and foremost, I feel that though this idea of segregation is well intentioned in this context, it absolutely limits women in every sense. It limits them physically, mentally, financially and legally.
I respect that Orthodox Muslims or Jews are sensitive to mingled space in a spiritual context, but how much should we tolerate this orthodoxy in our public space?
And then.
Mayor Bloomberg mentioned that, “Private people: you can have a private bus. Go rent a bus, and do what you want on it.”
Okay. Okay. Really?
I can rent a private bus and do whatever I want on it?
WHATEVER I WANT?
Can a guy buy a bus, start a commune with thirty wives and start marrying off twelve year olds to forty year old men? Let’s assume for the sake of argument that it’s a very big bus.
Can I buy a bus, start a sweat shop that employs six year olds to mass produce rope necklaces that all the cool the MLB players are wearing now for ten cents an hour and a peanut butter and jelly sandwich? I mean, what if my religion is capitalism and being as cost effective as possible is a practice of my faith?
And are these examples way out of line?
Are they not on the same level of imposing rules on women and men that may not have the intention of creating inequality, but that certainly have been proven to create the byproduct of inequality?
It’s an exciting time to own a bus, that’s for sure!
I don’t think I would like a gender-segregated society because it would halve my chances for seeing something crazy while people-watching at McDonalds. I WOULD like to see a FINGERNAIL-CLIPPING-SEGREGATED SOCIETY when it comes to restaurants, however. Gag me with a nail file.
Please sign me up for the finger-nail clipping segregation.
Although I will sure miss my husband…
People do that? Gross.
“Mayor Bloomberg mentioned that, “Private people: you can have a private bus. Go rent a bus, and do what you want on it.””
Dude. I think the general assumption here is anything LEGAL. So, no, you can’t use child labor on a private bust or, I assume, rent out prostitutes by the hour. But gender segregation isn’t illegal. Gender discrimination is illegal in specific cases.
I guess in Canada you can do whatever you want on a bus, such as to bring a machete. Like the guy did, in our “kinder, gentler country” where he then beheaded another passenger. A MACHETE ON THE BUS! IN OUR “MORE PEACEFUL” CANADA!
I’m aware of the context he used it in. For me, gender segregation in the public space in the United States should be illegal. Also, I would argue that not allowing a woman to sit in front of a bus classifies as discriminatory.
I don’t think you can do whatever you want on a bus. You should ask the guy who started the Girls Gone Wild thing. On another note, one place where it was interesting, to me, at least, in how gender was handled was Japan. It’s facinating how often men and women are segregated there by culture, rather than law, and also how mixed up their sense of modesty and sexuality seems to be, when compared to western cultures. Porn is everywhere, and wacko, but there’s very little sexual crime. In many villages, you have natural hot springs which are segregated, because you bathe nude together. It was just very interesting how things are handled, there.
I’v heard of that. There’s a similar feeling at play in India, too. I mean, no porn or anything, but there is advertised overt sexuality, but on an individual level there is a lot of modesty/shame in every day life.
No public system in the US should allow for any type of segregation ESPECIALLY brought on by religious beliefs.
That way leads to The Republic of Gilead.
Agreed. I’m off to Google “Republic of Gilead” now.
The handmaid’s tale – a book by margaret atwood…her take on what would happen in the US if a theocracy took over.
Should be required reading in our schools.
It is usually classified as sci-fi but is really speculative fiction.
As a resident of southern Utah, I love your line about the commune bus. Mostly because it totally happens; not in buses exactly but 13-passenger Ford vans. See them all the time at Costco. And I agree with you. Freedom to worship is part of our national identity but it should not come at the expense of our other freedoms.
They live in the vans?
I feel like gender segregation actually leads to less respect between the genders, not more, because it makes something forbidden, which increases desire. And I blame the population for subscribing to religions that are dictated to them by old men who purport to be authorities but are actually relics of a bygone age.
I agree that is the case about forced gender segregation. I think there’s a balance, though.
A Muslim friend and I were talking about the death penalty. I was arguing against it and he was arguing for it. The discussion ended when I said not only should a state not have that power to begin with, but the chance that innocent people will be executed opened the door to making the penalty grossly unjust from time to time. He argued that even if an innocent person was killed now and again it would still serve as a deterrent to murder. Which ended the conversation because that opened up a completely different discussion on worldview. So we dropped it.
A man from Arabia might listen to your story about the creep on the bus and use it as an example of why separation is so important to maintain. Someone else might point out that men in Arabia are indulged by their families from the time they are boys and the blessing of self-criticism is not something men in any culture use to begin with; hence this cretin thought he could get away with something like that. Personally I think he was just a jerk and deserved a swift kick in the gonads. But that’s my Western side coming out.
Like politics and governments, people have the societies they deserve. If the Arab Spring has taught us anything it’s that anything can be changed. Anything.
people have the societies they deserve
That is a very interesting thought. One that I will now likely be mulling over all day.
I hate to say this, but I think Avitable actually nailed it. It is like when women’s bosoms could be hefted and hoisted in to view, bit heaven forbid she ever show her ankle. Men were like, meh, boobs, whatever, show me that ankle bone if you really love me, baby. Separate but equal is never really equal.
Hate to say it? Ha!
I definitely agree with that, too. The forbidden definitely plays into the definition of that which is desirable.
I also *get* the merits of gender segregation – I mean, sometimes, it actually sounds refreshing. But overall, it seems like it would breed resentment among the females, and give an even bigger sense of entitlement to the men, and how the hell is that helpful or conducive to relations between the sexes?
The way I look at it, I can see the merits of gender segregation, but I think most people are lazy and let their more primal and oppressive natures take over. The good gets thrown out and it starts being used as an instrument of oppression.
Buses in Saudi Arabia not having gender segregation surprised me. Well, then there’s no gender segregation in the Umrah either(from what I’ve heard).
Gender segregation in buses(and every other public place) is a big thing here in Karachi. Only the women sit in the front of the bus. I don’t think buses in Karachi would work without it though. With the buses so overcrowded, I don’t think I need another thing to worry about.(I touch a lady, accidentally, and all hell breaks loose.)
I think buses in the rest of Saudi Arabia are probably segregated.
This idea of women being in the front in Karachi actually makes more sense in that this kind of segregation is a function of protection instead of treating them as some sort of “temptation” or chaotic entity.
i am still amazed that after being told to back up the dude went in for a third cheap feel. what would have happened to you, a woman without her man, if you punched him in the throat?
Am I the only one that sees an awesome business opportunity with the mobile sweat shop idea? Bring the production right to the market; no (or little) shipping costs, you can run from state regulators at the first sign of trouble…brilliant! Thanks for the great idea Faiqa! I will be speaking with your husband soon to see if he wants in as an investor! Yeah Capitalism!