Maybe the kiss was excessive. I don’t know. The persons involved say that it was not. I don’t know that it matters.
My suspicion is that if they were a straight couple, we wouldn’t be talking about this at all. If that kiss was an excessive display by straight people, I think people would have rolled their eyes at the obnoxious couple in Seat 11A and B and buried their noses in some magazine until the flight was over.
It’s no secret that as a general rule and on the whole, Muslims are a homophobic bunch. With laws in some places of the “Muslim world”* that deem homosexuality as an offense punishable with death in extreme cases, that’s not a generalization in the least. It is a fact.
It’s not secret either that I am a Muslim and a notable exception to this generalization.
I am an ally, advocate and friend of the GLBT community. The verdict is still out on the Qs.
Relax, I’m kidding.
My choice to support my friends is based on personal relationships, a general tendency towards humanism and alternative study and work by Muslims themselves. (Side note: It’s funny what happens when you start reading all kinds of books instead of just the ones that you already agree with.)
I gather that there are many (albeit less vocal) Muslims like me.
For those who are not, however, I’d like them to consider a few points.
We know being Muslim in this post 9/11 word is difficult.
(Oh, good, obvious and trite statements. Yay!)
We understand rationales behind security screenings and the lack of randomness in “random.” My personal belief is that the irritations that most people with Muslim sounding names have to go through are a result of general ignorance about Islam, its disparate cultures and the wide variety of methodologies of its practitioners.
Our life is hard because people don’t bother to learn about this. These hardships increase when people make decisions based on sound bites of information rather than intensive and thoughtful learning. We know that their insistence that they don’t have the time is ridiculous.
We know that if they really felt that our existence posed an existential dilemma for them that they would devote more time to learning about us than the twenty or so minutes they watch the news or, worse, sub even that for a talk with someone else who has watched the news.
In the past year, several Muslims have been asked to leave planes for the comfort of other passengers.
For example, just as recently as May, right here in my new home of Memphis, Tennessee, a Delta pilot refused to take off because of two Muslim scholars who were on their way to… wait for the irony… a conference on Islamaphobia. They were dressed in traditional Arab garb which obviously makes them terrorists. The plane took off without them. Delta apologized and put them on another plane.
As a Muslim, this bothers me. I assume that it bothered lots of Muslims.
I know why it bothers me.
What I wonder, though, is why it bothers other Muslims?
Does it bother Muslims because Muslims were asked to leave a plane?
That’s not why it bothers me.
It bothers me because the actions were ignorant.
Misguided, misinformed and without merit. To assume that other passengers are in danger because you think someone looks like a terrorist is wrong, especially when the criteria you are using to deem someone as a terrorist consists solely of looking at them and determining what religion they are.
This, incidentally, is the same brand of ignorance that causes people to assume that someone who is gay or a lesbian is some deviant threat to society and completely misses the fact that statistical probabilities and facts indicate that they are most likely a treasured friend, a great parent, a devoted partner or spouse, a member of a genuine family and/or a very productive member of society.
I am not upset because I’m a Muslim and Muslims were asked to leave a plane in Memphis, Tennessee.
I’m upset by these incidences because people were mistreated based on their identity and this is in complete contradiction to my personal values and what I believe are the core values of this nation.
As an American, I will not filter who is afforded respect, fair treatment and the right to live with dignity.
I will not stand by and say it’s okay for you to discriminate against that person because that person is not as much of a person as I am but don’t you discriminate against me because I am better than that person.
Some things are wrong because they are wrong.
It doesn’t matter who those things are happening to.
Next time someone is asked to leave a plane, Muslim or not, this is something to keep in mind.
*I hate that term “Muslim world.” Like it’s a different planet. Take me to your leader.
You are my favorite exception.
Thank you for your words and for bringing the issue into the broader context. It’s the perfect reminder that when discrimination happens to one, it hurts us all.
@Vikki, Thank you for bringing it to my attention. This issue within this context has been my mind for some time.
Once again, amen.
People need to check what makes them “uncomfortable.” Quite frankly most airplanes seats make me uncomfortable but I don’t see anyone fixing that problem. I am also uncomfortable with stupid people, but alas, discrimminating against someone because of their intellecutal capacity is frowned upon. Guess I’ll just have to get over it.
@Megan, I’m uncomfortable with the cast of Jersey Shore. Yet strangely unable to look away… tangent. Sorry.
fucking stupid people make me uncomfortable.
@hello haha narf, Well said.
Probably the same lady/ organization who wanted to boycott that already stupid show, “Dancing with the Stars”, because Chaz Bono is so offensive, was on that flight. Or, really – probably not. As you said, just another group of misinformed, paranoid people. What really worries me if that they were able to get them kicked off the flight!
I just go about and assume people are people – how they treat me, in general, is how I treat them in return. I *should* be more caring and loving in return, more often, when someone isn’t towards me, but.. well… okay… lesson learned. Crap. Today, I will make more of an effort to be kind to people who aren’t even kind to me.
Minus some of the moms at Gilda’s school. They’re like the flight people.
I went so off topic here. In my defense, all I ever really have to say to your words of wisdom are, “AMEN!”, and I decided to write more. Aren’t you glad?! Haha
@Sybil Law, I am glad. I read somewhere that according to some reports, none of the passengers actually complained.
I don’t know how but you fell off my reader. *Are you hurt? Any broken bones?* But I am remedying that immediately because I still love you and think you’re awesome. Completely and totally. Referring a friend to your blog right now actually, because I think she’d love you, too.
And this was a fantastic post.
@Amy – Hamlet’s Mistress, I probably fell off your reader because (1) I took a month off and (2) I am still on hiatus from reading blogs. I’m going to get back to my own reader in the next week. Or so. But thanks for coming back and referring someone!! XO
Will possibly respond in detail later. However:
“Some things are wrong because they are wrong.”
There is something tricky with this kind of thinking/statement.
It is precisely what people who want to discriminate against gays/Muslims would say. “Being gay is wrong because it’s wrong.” “Homosexual PDA is wrong because it’s wrong.” etc.
@adnan., Well, they may say that, but they rarely precede it with the other 600 words I did that expound on using a larger scope for what is considered “right” over what is “wrong.” I’m not a relativist. I have a distinct sense of right and wrong. I elaborated on why I thought this approach was wrong to a degree that I think is more than just “because the Quran told me so.” Mostly that sentence was there for dramatic effect and not to as a representative of my entire argument. Make sense?
*high five*
Some of my best friends are gay. (The silliness here is lost on everyone but Faiqa)
Some of my best friends are Muslim.
We talked about this at the Student Identity Outreach meeting yesterday. What bothers me is that no one on the plane stood up for these women. Ignorance is one thing; complacency is another.
I would have been uncomfortable on that plane as well, but not because of the lesbian couple; because the people in charge of my safety and comfort on that flight are ignorant and dangerous.
Also, some of the best kissers I know are lesbians. There. I said it.
@Andrew STAR,
On behalf of lesbians everywhere, I thank you for your kissing endorsement. Of course, that particular talent was one of our best kept secrets
@Andrew STAR, Yes, one of the first things that occurred to me was why nobody else walked off the plane with them. I think I would have. I’d like to believe I would have.
To be fair, Southwest has a history of kicking people off of their planes for all sorts of minor infractions. As a private company, they are allowed to boot anyone for anything. And they have proven that they will. I am not saying it is right, I believe very firmly in allowing people to live how they want to live, and to not interfere, verbally or otherwise, as long they don’t interfere with me. But I don’t take issue with Southwest for not allowing “excessive kissing” or “baggy pants” or any other thing they don’t want on their planes. As a consumer, I choose to fly whichever airline I want, and I have to follow the rules of that airline. If the rules are too stringent for my taste, I will choose a different one. Also, I do not take issue with the press for pointing out this and other ludicrous rules of such airlines, because people should know what they are spending their money on.
@Allyson, Really? You are willing to have people who have paid money to go from point A to point B by a transportation carrier–in a nation where we have no nationalized option–be taken off of a plane because they are {insert fat, Muslim, assumed Muslim, gay, old, wearing a diaper, whatever}? Sorry, I don’t know you, but that disgusts me. Seriously. It really REALLY angers me.
@Nancy, Allyson isn’t an asshole. I promise. I usually fill that role.
@Sheila, Thanks!
@Nancy, you are just raging all over Faiqa’s blog!
@Craig, Raging AWESOME.
@Nancy, and it can anger you. You can feel whatever emotion you want. You can DO close to whatever you want about it (you know, excepting violence, mainly) But, no, it doesn’t anger me. I think it’s dumb. I think it’s stupid for anyone’s “comfort” to take precedence over anyone else’s. “You’re not comfortable with my being gay? Well, I’m not comfortable with you being ugly. So how about you shut up and deal.” But I’ve also come to the place in my life that I prioritize my rage. There is a lot, and I mean A FREAKING LOT, of things to be enraged about going on in the world. And petty people being petty is pretty low on my scale. At the same time, if there were an organized protest, I would buy the protesters some pizza.
@Allyson, Incredible. Perhaps you’ve never been one of the targeted groups on the airplanes run by Southwest–Muslim, gay, fat, breastfeeding mother (or ALL of those things). I can tell you from person experience that being openly discriminated against, in a humiliating manner, based on strangers’ assumptions, is not only sad and frightening, but morally wrong. There is no difference between any of these scenarios and Jim Crow. I am sickened. When they come for you, people like me will be there to support you. It’s not petty, it’s called human rights.
@Allyson, “they are allowed to boot anyone for anything.”
They can boot someone off for being black?
Jewish?
A woman?
Not good looking enough?
Not {insert arbitrary decision here}?
I’m not sure that’s entirely accurate. Well, I know it’s not accurate because there’s a law that keeps them from refusing African Americans service.
Do you know how that law came into being? People made a huge deal about that law being unjust. They didn’t say, you know what, let’s stop going to that soda shop on the corner because they won’t let black folks in or let’s walk five miles to work because that bus makes black folks sit in the back. If they had operated by the logic you described here, I’m not sure that much would have changed.
Change begins with seeds of outrage.
The baggy pants thing… okay, I’ll give you that. Kevin Smith, the GLBT community and Muslims? I don’t know if I find the logic that allows SWA to hide behind being a “private business” sound.
@Faiqa, Here’s the thing, Faiqa; the people kicked off of the plane for kissing, weren’t just ‘being gay’ or ‘looking gay’ they were DOING something. And I’m not in any way shape or form against gay people, their activities, or their happiness. And I don’t think SWA is either since they literally are the official airline of the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD), and other GLBT organizations. But the crew were being harassed by other customers so they did what ANY service industry would have done. They asked the offending party to stop.
And for better or worse, changing laws won’t change people’s opinions, or feelings. Racism didn’t stop dwelling in the hearts of the people who were forced by law to service or hire African-Americans. And acceptance of “other” doesn’t come from seeds of outrage, it comes from a place of love. It comes from within.
I love you, Faiqa.
@Nancy, Thanks. Ditto.
@Faiqa,
@Nancy,
What Faiqa means is, “Faiqa loves Faiqa too.”
@Andrew Salman, That made me laugh out loud…and I know that’s true! ;P
I’m with Allyson, which probably negates my endorsement that she isn’t an asshole (sorry, Allyson).
People have a right to be whoever they want to be but other people have a right to not agree with it. I realize that it’s asshole-ish to kick someone off of their plane bc they’re a lesbian….but it’s also asshole-ish that I have fed my child in a bathroom stall bc it makes other people uncomfortable. And oh hey! Hasn’t Southwest kicked off a woman for daring to feed her child?
Okay then.
It’s a hard knock life people….and despite what the bumper stickers tell you, it’s not all rainbows and sunshine.
I’m not saying I support/endorse/whatever discrimination but I do support people believing what *they* want to believe and I support a business being able to reserve the right to refuse service.
@Sheila, And since I wasn’t on the plane, I don’t know if this couple was being inappropriate or not. Had I been on the plane and saw them kissing, I would’ve been okay with it and would’ve told the personnel that.
I suppose I should also add that people should stop getting offended so easily. Society in general is okay with allowing their six year old to emulate Britney Spears but not okay with lesbians kissing?
Makes no sense, really.
@Sheila, Or Jersey Shore?! We are okay with Jersey Shore?! Or that woman who dressed her daughter up like Pretty Woman prostitute on Toddlers and Tiaras?1 COME.ON. Kissing lesbians is the LEAST of what we have to worry about when it comes to our families being screwed up by what they see.
@Sheila, “a business being able to reserve the right to refuse service.”
The thing is… we’re not talking about showing up to a restaurant with flip flops on. We’re talking about people being held to different standards.
Let’s move away from the gays and talk about Muslims.
Service is refused to a woman wearing a head scarf or a dude with a beard who have an Arab accent. Okay, private business reserves the right to withhold service. After all, you know, there have been terrorist acts committed by people of that same religion/ethnicity and you know they could be terrorists. We want people to feel safe, so ask them to leave even though other than their ethnicity and religion we don’t know a thing about them. (We’re not even sure, for example, what kind of Muslim they are… Sunni, Shia, Sufi, Aga Khani, etc.) Fine. Okay.
Private business refuses the right to service.
Now, a priest with a collar and a nun with a habit board another flight. They have Irish accents. They, too, share an affilition (ethnic, maybe religious) with of a group (IRA) that has reportedly sponsored over fifty acts of terrorism (or freedom fighting) against a nation that is a known ally of ours, complete with suicide bombings and everything.
They should be asked to leave the plane, too. Right? For the safety and comfort of the other passengers?
My understanding is that a business has a right to refuse service as long as they’re not being discriminatory.
When was the last time you heard about an Irish person (clergy or otherwise) being asked to leave a plane?
That is a double standard and I think that falls outside of allowing businesses to practice as they choose.
Also, you’re not an asshole. Your opinion is important here. Always.
@Faiqa, but in the scenario you draw out for us, it’s not about politics. It’s about fear. People are afraid of Muslim looking people, because that is the face of the terrorists here in America. Maybe, in England Irish Catholics are being pulled off of planes, or maybe they’re at least looked at cross-ways. And maybe not. I know more than a few mothers who have pulled their child away from talking to priests for reasons other than suicide bombings – it’s fear, plain and simple. And people have a reason to be afraid. Muslim terrorism didn’t stop ten years ago, they stopped a plot to fly drone planes into buildings yesterday. And there is no outcry of rage from the Muslim community to stop these mindless acts of violence, so some non-Muslim Americans are rightfully afraid of every Muslim they see. Because how are they supposed to know that there isn’t at least the tacit support of violence?
@Allyson, Um, wow. There was and is a LOT of outcry/outreach from the Muslim community. In fact, there’s been a lot since that time as well. So much so that if a person needs condemnation at this point they’re simply showing how ignorant they are about the Muslim community in America. I’m sorry if you’re expecting us to self flagellate every time some whack job decides he’s going to cook up some plot to kill people, but that’s not going to happen. If you had been paying attention to Muslims instead of people talking about Muslims you would know that by virtue of our religion itself, these attacks are condemned.
Furthermore, I don’t know how to even begin to address how unfair of it is for you to assume that I can control a terrorist. As if they would somehow listen to me or another Muslim if we asked them to stop…. come to think of it, it’s infuriating to me that you’re implying that my community has the power to stop these attacks and this behavior by “just saying something” and that we’re simply unwilling to use it. Like we want people to die? Like we don’t care ot not emotionally impacted by the fact that our religion is being misused and misinterpreted to kill innocent people? If my making a statement would stop these people, I would take out a loan, start a television statement and decry these acts 24 hours a day, 365 days a week. How dare you assume otherwise about me or any other American Muslim?
Allyson, I appreciate your voice here and always have. But this is a really, really ignorant point of view and I find it downright hurtful.
@Faiqa, I do not mean to hurt your feelings. Nor to put it out there that I think you or anyone can stop the terrorists. I have been rather busy lately, and have not been able to satisfactorily form my thoughts into text. Rest assured, though that rather than pointing fingers, I am trying to give you perspective. I am trying to ask you to try to see it from the point of view of the angry and fearful people who are causing you this grief. And, for the record, I am not ignorant of the fact that Muslims have not been silent on this matter, I just feel that nothing they (you) have said has been assuring.
@Allyson, You clearly pay ZERO attention to anything regarding Muslim reactions (in the USA and around the world) to terrorism committed in the name of Islam. I am simply flabbergasted at your ignorance, which appears willful and, quite frankly, spiteful.
@Faiqa, I’m gonna just have to go with “Dear Lord I *hate* Jersey Shore. Also, if a business were to refuse service for flip flops, I’d be screwed from April to October. Ditto for sweatpants except that’s a character flaw I carry with me year round.
As far as the rest of it goes, I can’t agree, disagree, defend my initial assumptions and opinions or anything else because I’ve taken to hibernating in my own little bubble and have purposefully avoided most political, public and societal issues for two reasons : 1) At this point, my blood pressure being stabilized is way more important than being informed and 2) this baby has made me even more brain dead than usual and I’m exhausted, so at this point, I can hardly form a coherent sentence, let alone wrap my head around all of this stuff.
To distract from your disgust at my current self-proclaimed ignorance, it’s a girl
“Some things are wrong because they are wrong.
It doesn’t matter who those things are happening to.”
Amen.
@SFD, Thanks. And we obviously have a psychic connection because I’ve been obsessing over trying to find time to go catch up on your blog for the last two days. SO.BUSY.
“Our life is hard because people don’t bother to learn about this. These hardships increase when people make decisions based on sound bites of information rather than intensive and thoughtful learning.”
Indeed.
The night of Troy Davis’s execution, I watched CNN for four hours straight. Usually, I avoid news tv like the plague, but that night, I couldn’t resist. It turned me into a crazy person. And, I figured out that this is where much of our crazy people in American society are coming from–they spend too much time watching news tv and not nearly enough time reading or talking to people with differing views.
I am appalled at the downplaying of education (formal and informal) in the US these days. But it’s not only the responsibility of our leaders…the onus is on us as individuals to learn as much as we can. I used to rail against this kind of discrimination when I taught college-level Sociology…now I’m lazier about it.
Anyway, now that I’ve rambled on (forgive me, it’s the cold medicines!), I really appreciate this post!
[...] while stalking my new best friend, Vikki, from Up Popped Fox, I saw this story, “Flying While Muslim… or Gay.” Please read it. [...]
The way I read the story, they weren’t removed from the plane for their kissing, but rather for their response when they were asked to stop.
To me, there are two separate, albeit related, issues here. The fact that they were asked to stop in the first place and the fact that this led, presumably not inexorably, to their removal from the plane.
I do not feel like I have enough information to make my own determination on whether their behavior warranted intervention by the crew. Given the state of our current society, it’s easy to conclude that their gender was a factor. That doesn’t make it so.
If, in fact, their removal was, as I read, a result of the interaction with the crew becoming too boisterous, then that may be acceptable. Of course, if the original intervention was unwarranted, then it is difficult to accept the subsequent consequence. Unfortunately, it seems like one of those situations where you have to either suffer the inappropriate behavior or face the inevitable consequence. At the very least, being removed from the plane shines a much brighter light on the situation than simply acquiescing would have.
In general, when someone in a position of authority over you behaves inappropriately (I’m thinking specifically of a police officer in a traffic stop) but with little consequence, I think most people will choose to suffer silently rather than make a fuss and face a more significant consequence. I suppose the heroes are the ones who choose to resist minor inconveniences even when they know the immediate result will be more severe. Without those people, perhaps the minor issues would continue unabated.
I’m not sure I kept the initial thread of my comment. Oh well.
Really, we just need more kissing on planes.
I’m with Ren – more kissing on planes. I also read that their reaction was volatile and that’s why they were asked to leave.
I fall in the middle on this. I’m a lesbian, but I don’t have a girlfriend to kiss on a plane. I’d like to be able to have that privilege if I ever fool a woman into committing to me
I agree with Allyson on one point – the knee-jerk reaction to kick lesbians or Muslims or even fat people off planes or out of restaurants is simply fear. People fear what they don’t understand (Islam) or what they can’t relate to (homosexuality).
That’s pretty sad – and I think you are correct that that is where our fight needs to be, to eliminate fear and thus prejudice. It’s a hard battle, but it takes things like this that get publicized to change it, one person at a time.
That said, I don’t think the way to counteract ignorance is by throwing a fit. They might have gotten farther by not raising their voices and being rational. Or maybe not.
As Ray Davies said, “It’s a mixed-up, muddled up, shook up world except for Lola. L-o-l-a Lola.”