Elephants (Or “Ground Zero Mosques”) in the Room
I suppose someone out there is wondering why, given my openness about being an American Muslim, the debates surrounding the building of a mosque near ground zero haven’t been brought up in this space.
The thing is, I think most of you know where I would stand on this issue.
The other thing is, I am, frankly, exhausted at the prospect of writing yet another iteration of:
“I’m just a Muslim girl with Pakistani-American parents, standing in front of a relatively secular nation asking it to love her.”
If you’ve not seen Notting Hill, that last line was very clever. Trust me.
It occurred to me the other day that…
Someone out there who is reading this blog is incensed by the idea of a mosque being built NEAR ground zero.
They are also incensed by the idea that there are mosques being built in Los Angeles, Tennessee, or anywhere in our country.
This anger is so real, in fact, that when the President defends the rights of all Americans to build places of worship wherever they are legally allowed to do so, the accusation of him being “out of touch” with the American people is given full credibility and attention.
They are also so incensed that they’ve imagined that every Friday, every single Muslim in the whole world gets together on some version of terrorist Skype and we formulate plans for symbolic world domination. Like, we all sit around on Friday night, by the dim light of our burning American flags, coming up with names for a mosque that we plan to build on ground zero… I know!! Let’s call it Cordoba after the place where we got our butts kicked by the Christians back in the 13th century… that’ll teach them.
You should have been there, I tell you, it was just amazing how ALL ONE BILLION OF US agreed on this in just a matter of minutes!!
Look. Today, instead of my proselytizing about freedom, humanistic ideals and interfaith understanding, I’d like to offer an invitation.
I invite this incensed someone to state their opinion in a respectful and concise manner.
I would like you to tell me why, as your fellow American, I am not allowed to build a place a worship wherever I am legally able to do so.
I also ask readers to treat this commenter with respect if you choose to engage in a discussion, and to keep in mind that no person is defined by a single opinion. In other words, please don’t use words like “stupid” or “dumb.”
I also invite you to twitter or Facebook this post, so that the entire Internet can come here and respectfully explain to me exactly why a Muslim American should have less rights than a non-Muslim American.
I offer this invitation because I sincerely would like to know the rationale.
And I would like them to tell me to my virtual face.
I won’t even try to change their minds. Because, honestly, I don’t think it’s possible.
I’d just like to know what I’m up against.
172 Responses to Elephants (Or “Ground Zero Mosques”) in the Room
-
Articles
- February 2012
- January 2012
- December 2011
- November 2011
- October 2011
- September 2011
- August 2011
- June 2011
- May 2011
- April 2011
- March 2011
- February 2011
- January 2011
- December 2010
- November 2010
- October 2010
- September 2010
- August 2010
- July 2010
- June 2010
- May 2010
- April 2010
- March 2010
- February 2010
- January 2010
- December 2009
- November 2009
- October 2009
- September 2009
- August 2009
- July 2009
- June 2009
- May 2009
- April 2009
- March 2009
- February 2009
- January 2009
- December 2008
- November 2008
- October 2008
- September 2008
- August 2008
- July 2008
- May 2008
- April 2008
- February 2008
- January 2008
- December 2007
-
Meta
I agree with you and I’m grateful that I am able read your post and thank all Higher Powers for amazingly insightful people like you. People who are willing to voice an opinion in such a graceful manner!
This topic hurts me on so many levels. It is and will continue to be difficult for me to see news reports of town hall meetings and/or discussions that are reported across this land where people feel justified to spout their bigotry regarding the building of the mosque near the World Trade Center site.
Normally, I do prefer when I know someone is a racist because they tell me so by their actions and words, it makes it easier to know how to deal with them or avoid them entirely. But lucky (or unlucky) for me most days, most folks do not feel comfortable in letting you know this fact about them. However, when it comes to the utter hatred of Muslims and yes I’m using the hate word because that is exactly what I’m seeing with a lot of the comments and actions, it has become acceptable.
It has become acceptable by the same individuals who fought against the use a homophobic and/or racial slurs, fought against gender description, and so forth. As long as it the hatred is against anyone who is a Muslim their morality and need for justice is tossed away like it never existed. And that breaks my heart.
Once again thank you for this post.
There’s no law on the books that’s designed to make people “feel” safe. To use the argument that this community center will make people “feel less safe” is an invalid argument; if I’m a bigot, I could “feel unsafe” if a Latino family moves into the house next door. That doesn’t mean the law has any reason to remove them.
When I think about this issue, I am constantly reminded of the agony I feel when any of the people who are or have been the public face of Christianity say some hateful thing. Falwell and Dobson and their fellow fear and hate-mongers did/do not speak for me. Not ever.
And that hurts, when they misrepresent Christianity in such foul and hateful ways.
And for Muslims, I imagine that 9/11 was like that, only exponentially more painful. I cannot imagine the agony. I sat with Muslim friends, watching the coverage, and my friends wept for weeks. The hate that poured out at their faith…well, you all remember that part.
That people conflate the two, somehow think that Muslim people and terrorism have any more in common than I have with the horror of the Crusades…mind boggling. It’s up to us to suck it up, and insist that others do the same. Making decisions based on hate and fear hasn’t served us well so far.
Come to think of it, making decisions based on hate and fear didn’t serve the terrorists very well, either.
So, what’s INSENSITIVE is disregarding the pain of Muslims, the need to rebuild communities and places of worship. The need to take space in the world as people who want to live their lives and worship as they choose.
@Adrienne, The Crusades ended a long, long time ago. Terrorism, the world over, in the name of Islam is with us on a daily basis. We ignore that at our own peril. Shoe bomber, Times Square Bomber, let’s be real.
This conversation is so difficult to have. I see a lot of elitist posturing from the left (those people are just ignorant, we are the enlightened ones, bleh and bullshit); I see the emotional “My friend is a Muslim and how can you look her in the eye and say no to this” plea that gets the obligatory “Ohmigod I love you so much for that comment” chorus of comments; I see the ones who are uncomfortable discussing it at all.
What bothers me about discussions around 9/11 and this issue, any issue related to our security after 9/11 really, is that there are two groups of people, in my opinion. There is the group that saw 9/11 on TV, from a distance, on the news, whatever. Then there are those of us that it happened to, who were there. It’s so, so not the same thing.
I don’t really know how I feel about the Ground Zero mosque; it’s not being built AT Ground Zero, but it’s very close and that’s the rub for most. I’m totally in favor of religious freedom, and of respecting our differences, I’m descended from a middle eastern Muslim and I know how Muslims struggle in this country. I also know this, though, from feeling a skyscraper fall to the earth after being hit by a plane, and from walking out of the rubble of that on 9/11: there are Muslims all over this world who hate our guts and would happily see us dead. They hate our way of life, they hate what America stands for, they hate our freedom…how does anyone not know this? And we better not be stupid about it in the name of tolerance. It is just as important to protect our freedoms as it is to make sure they exist for everyone. I’m sorry that the terrorists that are trying to target us all over the world and in our own country are Muslim, but I didn’t make it that way.
I love my Muslim friends, I have Muslim family, my child has a Muslim middle name. But I have my eyes wide open about the battle that is going on between East and West in this world. It saddens me, but not enough to roll over and play tolerant to the point of stupidity. We are more concerned with sensitivity than with reality these days. It makes us a weak nation, in my opinion.
I think this was a very brave post, Faiqa.
@Kathryn (@kat1124), there are Americans who hate our guts, too. Like McVeigh – he’s a good example.
How does putting a mosque near Ground Zero have ANYTHING to do with Muslims who hate Americans? If a group of people who hated America were going to gather and plot to destroy us, couldn’t they do it just as easily at a church or another mosque or a Holiday Inn or anywhere else?
Nobody thinks that we don’t have detractors and haters. But what is weak is giving in to some type of misguided paranoia that they’re all out to get us.
@Avitable, I don’t know that it does have anything to do with them. Like I said, I don’t know that I object to it at all. I just sense from a lot of the comments that people are so “kumbayah” that they’ve lost sight, over these ten years, of the sad fact that there ARE Muslim terrorists out to get us. There are. Admit it. And that is a contributing issue for people who object to this particular mosque, I’m sure.
It’s not constructive to say “That’s just paranoid!”. But I don’t think that the issue will ever be resolved to everyone’s satisfaction anyway, we’re too contentious a society.
@Avitable, She’s saying there’s terrorists out there who hate us and she doesn’t like the comments, basically.
@Kathryn (@kat1124), “I see a lot of elitist posturing from the left (those people are just ignorant, we are the enlightened ones, bleh and bullshit); I see the emotional “My friend is a Muslim and how can you look her in the eye and say no to this” plea that gets the obligatory “Ohmigod I love you so much for that comment” chorus of comments; “
I see a lot of pot kettle black myself.
@Kathryn (@kat1124), “It is just as important to protect our freedoms as it is to make sure they exist for everyone.”
In fact, I’d say the surest way to protect our freedoms is to make sure they exist for everyone. That sums up the entire issue (and many others) in a nutshell, as far as I can tell.
@Kathryn (@kat1124), ” I see the emotional “My friend is a Muslim and how can you look her in the eye and say no to this” plea that gets the obligatory “Ohmigod I love you so much for that comment” chorus of comments; ”
Telling your fellow Americans that you equate their chosen faith with terrorism is emotional.
It may not be emotional to you, but I think it’s a reasonable assumption to make that it’s emotional to your fellow American.
It’s just as emotional as responding from the place of “well I was there, so I understand terrorism better.”
The emotional fact that I wish more Americans let themselves sit with is that we’re not talking about “the East”. We’re talking about people. We’re talking about your countrymen. We are, apparently, talking about your family. We are talking about my friend.
Does thinking about it in those emotional terms make it more difficult to brush it with the frightened brush of terrorism?
Good.
@Miss Britt, Britt, I don’t equate all or most Muslims with terrorism. I just don’t go the total opposite direction and say there are only a couple of Muslim extremists who’d like to bring this country down, because that is not true either.
You say “frightened brush of terrorism” like it’s an abstract concept. It’s not. Which was kind of my point about the difference between people who lived through 9/11 and those who saw it on TV. You posted something on another comment today that said as much…that if people would walk in each other’s shoes there’d be more understanding. Take the emotion out of your response and walk in someone else’s shoes on this issue.
There are many bigoted and ignorant people who don’t want this mosque for those reasons, I’m sure. That is not the only reason to consider that people may not want it, though.
@Kathryn (@kat1124),
Almost every religion has its violent extremists. Continually associating Muslim people with terrorism is profoundly destructive. That’s not Kumbayah shit; that’s paying-attention shit.
“there are Muslims all over this world who hate our guts and would happily see us dead.”
True. There are also Americans all over the world who hate Muslims and would happily see all of them dead.
And the vast majority of the people on planet earth don’t want anybody dead.
@Adrienne, I am not the one associating Islam with terrorism…that would be the terrorists. Over and over and over again.
@Kathryn (@kat1124), That…wow. So we’re going to let terrorists define Islam for us and that’s the only way to create a stronger America.
That was my point from the beginning: the fringe-dwellers shouldn’t define anything for us. Violent, extremist, militant Christians do not define Christianity and violent, extremist, militant Muslims do not define Islam. Ditto every other religion that humans practice, have practiced, or will practice.
Try it this way: insert a bigoted opinion about any other group (people of African, Asian, Indian, or any other non-white, non-dominant-culture descent) and say what you’re saying here. Because you can find terrible examples in every group. You’re generalizing to an alarming degree.
Because you are saying that terrorists are representative of many/most/all of the people who practice one of the world’s largest religions.
Why is it OK with you that terrorists have defined your thinking for you?
@Adrienne, I don’t let terrorists do anything. I didn’t let them scare me off of getting onto a plane two weeks after 9/11 happened. I made a statement of fact that it is not me associating Islam with terrorism. Please don’t try to put words in my mouth or tell me what I’m saying so that you can go off on an alarmist tirade.
Do you know what would go the furthest in aiding an understanding of Islam as being a peaceful religion? A huge effort on the part of the billions of peaceful Muslims to eradicate the extremism that breeds in so many Muslim countries. Eradicate it, so that it isn’t threatening people all over the globe as it does now. Examine the reasons why it’s flourishing where it is. Maybe that’s being done and we’re not aware of it, I don’t know. It’s just what came to mind just now.
First off, I love the movie “Notting Hill” and know that line in the movie very well (it’s one of my favorites in all of the movies I’ve seen).
Now with that out of the way, I will state what I believe to be the real issue here, which compliments your post: it’s a matter of people worrying that other that are not of their “kind” are being given a voice. In other words, Christians, who are the majority in this country, don’t like other religions being given status, but are forcing it as an argument, surrounding it in what happened on 9/11.
I am 100% for freedom of religion in all aspects, including building the Cordoba center in NYC. I am tired of the division of the “us vs. them” that is continuing to be a wedge between everyone in this country.
There is no us or them. There is all. If people that are against this would simply remember that, instead of trying to protect their own kind, we wouldn’t have these issues being inserted into public discourse.
Maybe someday in my daughter’s lifetime this will all be history fodder and people will finally think of everyone as all.
i’m speaking as an atheist, fiscal conservative, social liberal. i have several muslim friends, as well as christian, jewish and (duh) atheist. i’m not a fan of obama and neither was a big fan of dubya.
i have no problem whatsoever with a mosque, community center or other muslim based structure near ground zero. my only question (and i mean this legitimately as a question) is where the funding is coming from.
if the funding has any ties to terrorist sects or people with terrorist affiliations, then for me it’s problematic. i’m not saying there are any ties, i don’t know and am absolutely NOT trying to infer that there ARE ties. i’m just saying it would be my only question.
but then, i wouldn’t support any structure whatsoever built with questionable funding. muslim or otherwise.
@MommyNamedApril, What’s sad about what you said, to me, is that if we were talking about any other religion, the question of funding wouldn’t even be a question.
Again, this all comes back to Muslim = terrorist. If we brush that aside there is no argument at all.
Would you question the funding of a Catholic church to be built next to an elementary school?
@Finn, It’s unfair to rephrase the issue.
If a Catholic extremist group committed terrorist acts and then a Catholic church was going to go up at or near the site of those terrorist acts then, YES, I would absolutely question the funding.
In the same vein, if a Muslim group wants to build a Mosque near an elementary school in my town (or, pretty much wherever), I have no reason to nor do I have any interest in questioning the source of funds.
@MommyNamedApril, What I meant was that priests in the Catholic Church have molested children in the past, so would people consider a Catholic church nearby an elementary school offensive? Would anyone even question it?
Why is the funding issue only relevant because this facility will be in the vicinity of Ground Zero?
@Finn, the catholic church scandals, while absolutely horrific are not a correlative here. the place is relevant because it’s the place the terrorists chose. if you don’t agree, that’s fine. we’re all entitled to our opinions.
i reiterate that i’m not against building the mosque at the place in question, i’m just against forgetting history for the sake of political correctness. there’s a reason they still ask people whether they have had any communist affiliations then taking the citizenship test.
i hope the mosque does get built, i have no interest in oppressing good people. period.
thanks for the dialogue, i’m off for the evening.
@MommyNamedApril, should be *when taking the citizenship test.
p.s. *loved* the notting hill reference.
I can’t read the comments. As an American, I am horrified that there is even a question here. Freedom of Religion is Sacred, and it should be treated as such by all Americans. You are a brave woman.
I’ve begun writing a comment 15 different times. I’ve decided that since I just watched this video with my mouth agape and unable to speak I should let you watch it and perhaps you will understand the sadness and embarrassment that I feel when I realize how much of our country actually feels this way. “We’ve Got To Stop The Mosque At Ground Zero” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaQBrTROj2w
I find this topic hard to talk about because it’s such a sensitive issue. I did blog about this issue a couple of weeks ago, and basically what I think is the victim’s families should be consulted. Perhaps leave the decision to them?
My answer would be the same if a few Greeks caused 9/11, and a Greek Orthodox church was was in the plans of being built near WTC. I would say the very same thing. Ask the victim’s families. That is the only right answer, I think.
@Loukia,
How do you know that some of the victims families aren’t Muslims? Since there are already longstanding Muslims buildings in the area, it’s quite likely that there was/is already a Muslim population in the vicinity of GZ, and it’s not right for the people who went through hell and lost people they loved, to decide the fate of a religious building, meant for the decent, kind, non-terrorist Muslims that want it built and to use it.
Yes, if terrorists are funding it, maybe that’s an issue, but if it is just like any other church, the families of the deceased shouldn’t have the right to take away their place of worship.
@Blaine,
Well, surely some of the victims families are Muslims. And Jewish, and athiest and Buddhist and Greek Orthodox and Catholic. I just think they should ALL be involved in some way in the final decision. I believe that because *they* are the ones who lives have forever changed since 9/11, they should sort of have the final say. If they say, ‘go ahead, build, it doesn’t matter, nothing can bring back our loves ones’, fine. If they say: ‘We think it’s in bad taste’, fine.
I’m not against ANY specific religion. My views would be the same across the board.
So let’s say a bunch of Greeks did this. Of course it doesn’t mean all people of Greek Orthodox faith are bad. HOWEVER if there was this much controversy over the building of a Greek church, I would probably say, you know what? Why open up all these wounds again? Let’s just build our place of worship elsewhere. I honestly, honestly would.
It’s a lot to think about.
Excellent post. The divisiveness and fear stirred up by the right wing in this country just amazes me. Here in Arizona we’re fighting our own battle with the SB1070 scare tactics. It’s so frustrating when it hits close to home, my g/f is half native American and half Mexican-American so SB1070 was of particular interest to us.
I am always surprised how issues which seem so trivial is blown out of proportion !!
And with all due respect to the deceased in 9/11, I wonder whether they would really care having a worship place (be it belonging to whichever religion) being set up near their death place.
And for gods sake, when will some ever comprehend the fact that its not Muslims who was responsible for 9/11- How can mind twisted, hate infesting psychopathical maniacs ever belong to any religion??
Well, Faiqa, I read your post and was all, Hell yeah, tell her WHY, jerk! This echoes my initial reaction and fallback to the constitutional right to religious freedom.
Then I read Craig Friend’s comment and now I’m super pissed because my homeowners association won’t even let me keep a freaking boat in my driveway! I own the property, how can they tell me I can’t keep a boat on it, it’s not even a controversial entity.
Now I’m more confused on the topic.
OMG!!! There’s a mosque inside the PENTAGON!!!11ONE1!!
Thought provoking post. Let’s keep this simple shall we?
Is it wrong to build this Mosque/cultural center near ground zero? Nope. It’s perfectly legal. It is, however, insensitive at the very least. Someone in your comments likened it to building a Shinto temple 2 blocks from the USS Arizona memorial. Legal? Of course. Insensitive? Yep. Someone says it out loud and suddenly everyone must take a turn at the pulpit and shout about their “rights”. Yeah… that works…
I live in an area that vehemently opposed the building of a mosque. Not too long after 9/11 a nearby mosque with proven ties to terrorism chose to expand. They expanded here. It got ugly…it’s still ugly… The reason it got ugly? The shouting was about each sides “rights”. None of the shouting was about promoting understanding or education.
It’s interesting to me that when a child is afraid of something, adults will go to any length to demonstrate that the perceived fear is nonexistent. When adults fear something? The perceived fear is discounted or dismissed under the guise of “rights”, “freedom”, and the ever popular “bigotry” and “racism”. That does nothing to help create the America that everyone seems to want.
Speaking of fear and understanding, I am that white, conservative, right-winger that folks so freely bash. I disagree with building a new mosque/cultural center so close to ground zero. I believe that it’s insensitive. That’s it. It has nothing to do with your race or religion or your politics. It has to do with all of us being human beings and demonstrating consideration for each other so that we may all live together.
Bash that..
@Nyt, believing that it’s somehow insensitive has everything to do with religion. You perceive it as being insensitive, because in your worldview, Muslim = terrorist. That’s where xenophobia and prejudice rears its ugly head.
Members of a small fundamentalist religious fringe group flew planes into the World Trade Center towers. To say that they speak for every practitioner of their religion is ridiculously close-minded and short-sighted.
Once again, McVeigh was a Catholic. Should a Catholic Church be prevented from being built near the Oklahoma City bombings?
@Avitable, Thank you for enlightening me on what my own worldview is.
Certainly there are loons in every religion, and I don’t view all Muslims as terrorists. However, the idea that practitioners of any religion can dismiss the role that radicalism plays in perception is ludicrous. My point here is that asserting one’s “rights” does nothing to assuage fear, it does nothing to promote understanding. I’ll defend the legality of building a house of worship wherever one chooses, but I’m not going to raise a glass over the win. I’m going to tell the winner that jamming your “right” down the throats of those who harbor irrational or unreasonable fears just makes them that much more frightened and much more bitter. If the winner is good with that, then so be it.
And I’ll tell it to whomever wins…
@Nyt, Speaking of fear and understanding, I am that white limousine elitist liberal who voted for that Muslim socialist President who wasn’t born here and is a Nazi who wants to take away our guns. But of course I’ve never been bashed so what do I know. Still, however, I agree that a mosque/cultural center should be allowed so close to ground zero because it doesn’t have anything to do with 9/11, was approved by the local authority, is to be situated on private property, and since there’s a mosque in the pentagon what’s the bug deal?
Bash this.
@RW, for that matter what’s the bug deal? Also?
@RW,
The bug is in the lamp.
The eagle flies at midnight
Your limo is double parked and the ticket will cost you $120,315.00
@Nyt, lol, you know what Nyt? In my entire life… I’ve never found anything charming.
@Nyt, So by your reckoning I should hide my child away lest he be seen by people who’ve lost a child or cannot have one and it would upset them?
@Finn, Not at all, but would you bring your child to the fertility clinic or the support group meetings for parents who have lost children?? How about to the funeral of a child? Yeah, it’s like that.
@Nyt, No, it’s like saying I can’t bring him within two to four city blocks of the fertility center, support group or funeral.
@Finn, Actually, some crazy reporter was out there today.. It’s 564 feet by his laser measure.
I think one of the questions that’s hanging out there is “Where does Ground Zero begin and end?”
For some it seems to be the actual footprint of the towers, for others it seems to be the surrounding area. If you listen to some, it encompasses all of lower Manhattan. I’m not from New York, so I don’t know.
And this really isn’t about “bringing” you child anywhere. Bringing him somewhere suggests that at some point you and your child will leave. How about having him stand in front of the the clinic, support group, or cemetery, all day every day… Is it insensitive now?
@Nyt, should something that is potentially insensitive be a subject for legislation?
Should everything that is potentially insensitive be available for legislation?
Does the controlling party in Congress get to determine what insensitivity will or will not be legislated against?
Is it insensitive to the survivors of relatives who died in Patton’s 3rd Army (whistles, looks up at sky) to abridge any part of the Bill of Rights they were killed for because something may be seen as insensitive?
Does sensitivity trump the Bill of Rights?
I don’t know if you can sustain this argument. Unless you want to keep moving the goal line in order to come out on top.
@Nyt, What if we lived across the street from one of these places? What if the clinic or whatever moved into our neighborhood. As Robin asked, what about the two mosques that are already there? What about the Muslim community that has been there for years?
At what point is simply existing “insensitive”?
@Nyt, …so the other mosques that are in the same vicinity as Ground Zero, that have been there since before the WTC broke ground in the late 60′s…are they being insensitive by staying there? Should they move?
I am being serious. I am mot bashing you, just asking your thoughts.
@Robin, There’s no reason for existing mosques to even consider leaving. They are certainly part of the fabric of the neighborhood.
It’s interesting to me that this particular mosque in this particular place somehow became a lightening rod for the treatment of Muslims nationwide. I never saw it as that. This is one mosque in one place that many associate with radical Islam and where great tragedy occurred. I don’t think it at all unreasonable to think that adding this mosque in this place qualifies as insensitive.
And no worries about bashing me. Disagreement is merely another path to learning….
I can’t make any ad hominem attacks? Well, where’s the fun in that?
Since it appears my shtick isn’t going to garner a serious reply I ‘ll just keep going cuz that’s how I bloviate… er… roll, especially on this insensitivity deal. I hear a lot of talk about Shinto shrines and all, but let’s finish the discussion.
I wonder, if we take the logic behind the argument against the mosque on the grounds that it is “insensitivity” and carry this out to its full measure where would that get us?
Let’s look at the Confederate flag. Not because it represents a “nation” that no one alive has actually experienced but because it was the symbol used by the Klan when they bombed a church and killed 4 little girls in Birmingham in 1963 – which people still alive can easily recall living through. Should people be able to display it because it is part of their history or should it be shrouded because it is “insensitive?”
There are certain native American tribes who think that stylized cartoon images of their racial characteristics is not only insensitive, but an insult.
Are the people who are saying that a mosque within 2 blocks of Ground Zero also in favor of getting rid of all Indian-based logos and in taking away people’s rights to have the Confederate flag on display?
What about the German Iron Cross that a lot of bikers wear? This is enough of a reminder to survivors of the holocaust of German militarism that eventually led to the internment of their relatives or even themselves. Are we going to tell all the bikers to get rid of the Iron Cross on their jackets? You want to do that, or me?
Since I’m free to go unchallenged here, I just thought I’d put that in. Thanks!
PS- no really, there’s already a mosque in the Pentagon. How did we let this happen??
@RW, Why must it be “all” when it comes to sensitivity?
I’m not going to fly the start and bars driving through parts of this city or any other. I’m not going to show the iron cross at a holocaust memorial and I’m not wearing an old Illini sweatshirt on the reservation.
I’m not going to do those things because I’m in your house…you may find it offensive, you may be afraid of what it represents which in turn makes you afraid of me or me offensive to you. I’m not going to do it because I value a peaceful heterogeneous society. While it’s certainly my “right” to do any of those things, I’m going to choose not to so that you may see me and I may see you, without fear and without anger..
PS- There’s also a Christian chapel in the pentagon among other things…
@Nyt, I actually think your argument has some merit. I think what I hear you saying is that insisting we win specific battles without taking the time to make one another feel more comfortable just makes the war go on longer. That may be OK when you’re not talking about infighting, but it doesn’t serve to unite anyone.
And I get that. I do. I think there is some truth to that and a place for that kind of thinking.
Actually, I think posts like this, where a Muslim American woman can say I’m just a Muslim girl with Pakistani-American parents, standing in front of a relatively secular nation asking it to love her.” to people who know her and know of her CAN go a long way towards that.
I wholeheartedly believe the BEST way to make progress in these matters is not to bow down to fears in the name of sensitivity, but to put a human face on the issues and remind us all of the things we have in common.
@Nyt, The [rinciple of “all” gets down to selectivity. How do we determine which things we agree or do not agree should be deemed insensitive? It’s either a principle or it isn’t. That’s why it really matters that it’s “all”. Because in a society of laws that’s what you have to do or it isn’t fair. It’s a principle. It either is or it isn’t, unless you want to go back to “separate but equal” and Jim Crow and such.
I find it really funny that I come down on the side of all those insensitive bastards I listed. The confederate flag should not be outlawed, school should not be required to change their logos, my friends in the Outlaws… I’m not sayin shit to them about their crosses. And the mosque should be built. Because it’s either one way or the other. Pick and choose and you open another can of worms.
I would also remind you that the Pentagon was attacked on 9/11, and that’s just about the time that Muslim prayers got started there.
Why aren’t you upset by that? Why one and not the other? I won’t try to guess. I can guess but I won’t say it. But politics ain’t beanbag, and some folks are playin’ this pretty smart.
@RW, So, the only “fair” solution for disagreements such as this is to legislate morality?? Quick, they’re towing your limo!!!
I see your point, but I’ve got to say, if you think we’re functioning as a “whole” and “equal” society, I think your mistaken. We haven’t been able to legislate this away and the very existence of our “rights and freedoms” means that we won’t be able to. (that’s a very long and drawn out conversation that has nothing to do with race or religion and everything to do with the rules and mores of society, along with human nature) There’s little question that the law should win in this case. But as different sides complain about one another, as different sides try to jam their “rights” down the others throat, all sides need to understand the consequences of those actions and every side needs to accept them.
@Nyt, I read through all of your posts and do commend you for standing your ground on this issue. However, I am having a hard time understanding what your idea of an alternative should be…..What do you think that we should do as a country instead? If every side needs to accept the consequences of jamming their “rights” down each others’ throats, don’t you think there should be a better way? And what consequences will each side have to face?
@Robin, Certainly the consequences are easier to illustrate than the cure. We live the consequences every day. When people are so intent on taking the pulpit and demanding their “right” they lose sight of the very people they have to live with every day. When you raise your hands to be “counted” you have no hand to extend in friendship or understanding.
That being said, the cure is probably consideration. So many folks demand it for their own ideas yet very few give consideration to the ides of the guy standing next to them. Of course consideration falls under the umbrella of personal responsibility and that horse is just meandering out of the gate…
@Nyt, I’m not saying the only fair solution for disagreements such as this is to legislate morality. That’s way too much government for me, a lifelong libertarian. In fact I’m illustrating that you can’t control sensitive/insensitive through law.
As for the rest of what you’ve written here, democracy is messy. It’s also a continuing project. Whaddayagonna do.
But riddle me this, if you are this Islamic Association, do you now say “we don’t want to be insensitive to our neighbors so we will not build this mosque.” ? Because that may be the high ground, but you know, and I know, and everybody knows the troglodytes in the Tea Party aren’t going to say “those Muslims sure did take the high road.” They will dance in the end zone and claim it a great victory for America.
And you know it.
So do they acquiesce? The Muslims? Do they take it off the table? Or hold to their rights? You tell me. But don’t use language I might not like – hell, I’ll force you to say it from two blocks away.
@RW, If I am this Islamic Association? I’m going to acknowledge the fear. I may not acquiesce, but I’m going to do my best to assuage the fear and educate those that I can. If the fear is still there when I’ve finished, I may walk away. If someone deems that a victory or a loss, that’s on them.
As for the Tea Party? I wouldn’t necessarily go for the “troglodyte” label so quickly. Neophytes? Perhaps…
I’m just gonna drop a line here and say…
I am glad for this forum on Faiqa’s blog to air out some stuff. Even if some of the thoughts I happen to disagree with, it’s nice to see that good ole 1st amendment is being exercised and we get to voice our thoughts, feelings and opinions without any repercussions, except from each other.
I think the key to healing is communication and understanding…we may not agree, but at least we understand why people are feeling the way they do…and it’s very healthy and can only bring good things, right?
Ok, please continue to debate. I just wanted to clear the air just a little. I fear some of you were starting to break out the virtual knives and were going to start cutting!
@Cissa Fireheart, I appreciate that, dear, but I think they were doing just fine.
Respectfully, I will add what I wrote on my blog concerning this issue this morning. Synopsis, it’s in bad taste and disrespectful in it’s symbolism and deceptiveness of the developers. Here’s what it read:
* The developers of the ground zero mosque are lacking basic human decency. Even if they legally have the right to build there, they are obviously lying about their motives for building 560 ft from ground zero. They originally claimed that their intention was to honor the victims of September 11th and their families. Yet, when those families are outraged, offended and outspoken about their disdain for this project, along with much of the country. Even after having been offered numerous incentives to change location and with the knowledge that they are causing people anger and pain, these people push forward with the project. That equates to a lack of scruples, basic human decency and honesty in my book.
PS, I have no problem with religious freedom for all. I don’t care if a mosque is built in TN, Los Angeles, or my own back yard, but being that the atrocities that were committed on September 11, 2001, were done so while invoking the faith of Islam (albeit a hijacked and bastardized version of Islam), respect and sensitivity to the hurt and anger of Americans and due respect for the sacredness of the ground where so many died and still rest should be enough for any mainstream Muslim to not only denounce the acts of that day, but act in good faith and good taste by respectfully choosing a different location to build.
@WeaselMomma, What about the families of the Muslims who were killed in the towers? What about the families of others who were killed there speaking in favor of the mosque? How come they don’t count?
No – I’m saying, how come their opinion doesn’t count? I could just as easily say you’re obviously lying about how much you care about the survivors because you omit them. Why did you do that?
What does the mosque even have to do with 9/11? Did the people building the mosque guide the planes in with lasers? Or did they participate in memorial services to commemorate the victims just like others?
I think before anyone decides to be the arbiter of what is decent and what isn’t they first need to look in a mirror and try to visualize what their own motives might look like.
Just a thought.
@WeaselMomma, I (and Finn) keep asking the same question and no one has answered it yet….
What about the mosques that currently exist in the vicinity of Ground Zero and have pre-dated the WTC’s erection? Should they move? Is there existence in the area insensitive?
Honestly, I haven’t read every comment, so i apologize if I am repeating anything.
I saw someone mention that this has nothing to do with religious freedom/oppression etc. And I agree.
Legally, yes, of course the Mosque with the proper permits/zoning etc. is allowed and could be built. However, It is hard to not question the motivation behind building the Mosque there.
It is clear that this will not mend or repair relationships, or build understanding. If that were the true purpose, wouldn’t the money be better spent contributing to a memorial to Muslim victims that died in the attacks and using the land for a community center that offers cultural classes on true Islam?
Also, to those that are in support of the Mosque, so much so that people who think it is a delicate subject are cast as ‘sad’ or ‘ignorant’ by you; I am sure you disagree with Duke Energy’s decision to not built near sacred Cherokee Ground. Just as the Mosque isn’t ON Ground Zero, and therefore shouldn’t bother people so shouldn’t the Duke Building not cause concern to the Cherokee?
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/08/03/98521_duke-energy-wont-build-near-sacred.html
The simple fact is that Ground Zero has become a Sacred Ground for Americans of every race and creed. It is the sight of the largest mass murder in the states, and it was murder committed in the name of Fanatical Islam. Not only was it the site of the attacks, it is the buriel ground for many. And though the builders of the Mosque may have the best intentions in the world, those that claim Islam in their fanatical crusade around the world may see it as a victory urging their cause forward.
Building a Mosque in the shadow of those hallowed grounds… illegal, no, nor should it be. Insensitive? Misguided? yes, absolutely.
I agree that I think it is ‘sad’ that this has turned into a political debate because anytime that happens people feel the need to be on one ‘side’ or another. And flames get ignited and reason, compassion and logic are pushed aside.
ps. to the person who posted about McVeigh… he didn’t bomb in the name of catholicism. Hitler, however, did use catholicism, which is why Pope John Paul agreed with Jewish leaders and asked the Carmelite Nuns to leave their convent in Auschwitz.
@Mandy, what about the mosque in the Pentagon? Is the Pentagon just as sacred?
@RW,
There is not a ‘Mosque’ in the Pentagon. It is a multi-denominational chapel dedicated to the victims of 9/11, all religions are welcome to worship and pray. Something like that, especially paid for by private Muslim contributions, would be a wonderful dedication.
” That’s because when the Defense Department rebuilt that section it constructed a memorial and chapel dedicated to the memory of the 184 people who were killed.
The chapel is open to all faiths and reserves time for Muslim prayer every Monday through Thursday at 2 p.m. On Friday a prayer service for Muslims is led by an Imam.
The Army runs the office of the Pentagon Chaplain, and it says the chapel is used regularly by roughly 400 people from all faiths. Army spokesman Lt. Col. George Wright says those worshippers include people from the Catholic, Jewish, Episcopalian, Hindu, Mormon and Muslim faiths. For privacy concerns Wright would not say how many Muslims use the chapel.
The chapel is located only about 20 steps from the center of the impact site and so far the Army hasn’t received any complaints about Muslims prayer.
Yet the controversy in New York City has led some people, including one politician, to incorrectly label the place of worship as the “Pentagon Mosque”. Speaking to CNN on Sunday, Democratic Congressman Jerrold Nadler said he supports putting a Mosque in New York and used the Pentagon to make his case. “There is a mosque in the Pentagon, which is also hallowed ground,” Nadler said. “No one objects to that.” Ground Zero is located in Nadler’s district.”
see more at factcheck.org
@Mandy, I could be wrong, but any place Muslims worship “becomes” a mosque. A misread on my part if that’s not what the space *becomes*.
And yet, “Something like that, especially paid for by private Muslim contributions, would be a wonderful dedication.” I’m going to assume you meant along with contributions from other faiths and walk by that. I hope that’s what you meant. Because, obviously, that would be like a penalty if they had to pay for everybody.
@RW,
no what I meant was that assuming the funding for the current plan is by private Muslim contributions, than that money directed toward something more communal would be wonderful.
Problems arise from the arguments themselves.
… if, they are just planning on building a Mosque there because there is a need for a Mosque there… i.e. a growing population of Muslims in need of a place of worship, and that was where they could find space to do so, then great.
However, part of the proposed plan is to supposedly ‘heal relations’ by showing the true side of Islam like they very purposely chose a spot near ground zero… but that just won’t work in a positive way with the direction they are taking now. It is clear that there is objection, so you would think that if their mission was to help create a better perception of Islam, than they would’ve given a little credence when representatives of victims families approached the planners long before this became a national debate.
@Mandy, I still don’t understand why this is “insensitive.” This is their neighborhood. There are two mosques there already.
Healing will never happen unless we can put a face on the “other.” Unless non-Muslims have the opportunity to get to know Muslims and their faith they will continue to be scared of them. That’s what this comes down too. We, as a national, are scared shitless of Islam. Why? Because we don’t understand it. We’ve all segregated ourselves. It’s much harder to hate people individually than as a group. The idea behind this community center (which is sorely needed in this community, btw) is to foster interaction and, hopefully, understanding. That’s how healing will begin; when we understand that a handful of nutjobs do not represent one billion followers of Islam.
@Finn,
I might just be speaking for myself, but I would say that “we” are not scared shitless of Islam at all.
“we” are pissed that a group of radicals take people that are impoverished and in bad situations and tell them that God/Allah will reward them and their families if they go and kill innocent people.
“we” are so incredibly thankful of our freedoms that we all get incensed and mad at each other about how we can help people throughout the world be just as free. (and can hopefully appreciate that as we get pissed at each other we are further flexing the muscles of the freedoms we all enjoy daily.)
“we” try desperately to walk fine lines between right and wrong when confronted with difficult issues that may not necessarily have anything to do with us directly… but that may affect our neighbors because
“we” remember very acutely the consequences of a “non-stance” during WWII.
@Mandy,
and if there are already two mosques there… than there is already a face on ‘the other’
@Mandy, Those mosques are in spaces not big enough to accommodate the communities that want to pray there.
My point in mentioning it is that calling the building of Park 51 insensitive because it contains Muslim prayer space when Muslims already gather and pray in the same neighborhood and have since long before 9/11 doesn’t make sense to me.
@Finn,
I understand, and agree that a mosque ‘existing’ at that site is not insensitive.
It is the idea of building one now, building one closer, and building one with questionable intention and funding.
Like I said in an above post…. if it was just about serving a growing muslim population, i don’t think there would be a debate. However, there was a point in the planning to purposefully be close to Ground Zero. Just like the nuns in Auschwitz I think the intent could be wholly good. But, again, like the nuns, it is misguided.
There are Muslim Groups all over the world coming out against this structure, calling it, ‘Fitna’… -a post below alludes to it.
If, just if, this is seen as a victory cry to extremists… than it is only further hurting Islam.
I believe in the intelligence of the person (not people… love the quote from Men In Black about that… but I digress). We really do understand that Islam in and of itself and almost all of its followers are no different than any other religion that believes in a higher power and to try and do right by other people… but Islam is still in its infancy as a religion (when Christianity was this age… it was crusading). It is a difficult time… it is unfortunate, but a fact that there are armies waving Islam as their flag that have claimed us their enemies.
Because of those few… sorry, baby is crying… will finish the point later… have a great night!
@Finn, I’m back
Look, honestly, I would love for the Mosque to be built there. I would love to show the world what religious freedom really looks like.
I would love for there to be cultural lessons held there and for peace and understanding to flow freely.
but when the original intent is divisive… realistically speaking, there is not much that even freedom loving flower carrying hippies like myself can do to stem the controversy and hatred that will only grow from such an act… so as much as I would love to think positively… in the real world, I just hope the first act… that will only harbor negativity, does not happen.
@Mandy, not only
Americans died-not even close
Also, in defense of exactly where it should be placed… Y’all do realize Muslims died there that day right? Muslims went to work that morning expecting to home to their families and they died. They died because the people steering those planes didn’t care who worked in those towers, they just wanted them to die. Why can’t we honor them too?
Why can’t we honor everyone who worked there no matter who they are? Oh, I remember, the oppositions rights trump everyone elses.
This is my first time here. I saw Diana post about it on facebook.
I am aware that Canadian Muslims have decried the building of the mosque.
“The fact we Muslims know the idea behind the Ground Zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation to thumb our noses at the infidel. The proposal has been made in bad faith and in Islamic parlance, such an act is referred to as “Fitna,” meaning “mischief-making” that is clearly forbidden in the Koran.”
And I agree with that to some extent because I do believe that this is, in part, a thumbing of the nose at us.
My opinion, however, is that this would be an excellent opportunity for Americans to acknowledge that radical Muslims are but a drop in the bucket in the Muslim religion (much as pedophile priests are a great minority in the Catholic religion) by welcoming it. Tolerance and forgiveness go a long way towards healing.
But we’re the people who took the french out of french fries because the French pissed us off so I’m not holding out much hope that Americans will take the high road.
I’m much more interested in the 1st amendment aspect of this than the other issues involved.
@Donna, I need more data. The only Canadian Muslim critic of this is one admittedly secular Muslim woman who appeared on O’Reilly. Were there more than just her?
After reading all these comments, I think I have to finally give my opinion.
If the proposed mosque is going to be built on prime NYC saloon/bar/gin mill real estate, then I’m against it. Otherwise, que sera sera. Oh, sorry…?????? ????? ?????
@B.E. Earl, hehe…um, there was an Arabic translation of “whatever will be, will be” in there at the end, but it didn’t take.
I think this discussion was supposed to be about elephants, and, by extension, Alabama football. I’m disappointed.
In the 16th century, a Muslim Ruler named Babur established the Mughal Dynasty in India (it lasted until the peak of the British rule in the 1800s). During his reign, he built what was known as the Babri Mosque (a beautiful mix of Islamic and West Asian architecture) in North India.
Fast forward to the 1900s, this Mosque was categorized as a National Historic Monument by the Indian government. During this same time, people started debating that the site of this Mosque also happened to be the site of a sacred Hindu Temple used by Hindu Lord Ram, and that Babur demolished the Temple to build his Mosque.
In 1992, a group of Hindu extremists (under the Hindu nationalistic banner) charged the Mosque and literally tore it down by hand…brick by brick. I, along with Millions of Muslims was outraged, disgusted, and extremely angered by what had happened. However, most of us Muslims also understood that just because some hate-filled, misguided, and ignorant people were responsible for this gruesome act, every Hindu was not to blame. A few years later, they (people affiliated to that same Hindu Mob) attempted to build a Temple at that same site where the Mosque once stood. This further angered a lot of people and started discussions much like the ones going on right now regarding Ground Zero.
Almost 10 years after the demolition of the Babri Mosque, I found myself on the other side of the table when a few ignorant and hate-filled Muslims did what they did on 9/11 under the Muslim banner. The debate of building a Mosque at Ground Zero is, in my mind, much like that of building a Temple at the Babri Mosque location. I understand the “feelings” that the victims’ families may have towards this…I had the same “feelings” regarding a Temple at the Bari Mosque location. I also understand that while “legally” their argument may not stand up in the court of law, building a Mosque at that exact location may be in “poor taste”.
HOWEVER, I think the most important point, the deciding factor in my mind in this debate is that the proposed Islamic Center/Mosque is NOT BEING BUILT at Ground Zero. There are several Temples and Mosques around the demolished Babri Mosque location. There are several (from what I understand) Mosques in close proximity to Ground Zero. But there is no Temple (and there shouldn’t be) at the exact location of where the Babri Masjid once stood. Because that would be WRONG. Similarly, there should probably not be a Mosque at the exact location of Ground Zero. And THAT is EXACTLY why the proposed structure is two blocks away from Ground Zero. So, why the argument?
@Tariq, I for one distinctly remember the films of the incident on the national news here. Pre-9/11, I also distinctly remember the general reaction here was one of “well there they all go again,” you know “people over there,” those “crazy fanatics.” I wonder how many of my fellow Americans who had that “white man’s burden” based viewpoint are now happily engaged in the flurry of false information and innuendo on this subject.
I also strongly believe that there has been a growing body of evidence to indicate that the only thing that separates Christian fundamentalists from Islamic fundamentalists is the brand.
And the real trouble we find our future in starts from the dogged intransigence of both, especially if we find that they are both in positions of power in their respective spheres.
God help us.
[...] I heard a little piece of news about a protest in New York City. Apparently, people are upset about plans to build a mosque near Ground Zero. My friend Faiqa even wrote a post about it. [...]
I wrote a post about this because my fb page is full of people who are against the mosque but cannot come up with a real reason beyond what their political pundits tell them. I do not have the comments you have! I got two. One from a twitter friend, and one from my mom. I think it was my disclaimer telling people to think about their responses before giving me their opinions. I’ve been reading through most of the comments tho and can’t really add. Just that I’m amazed that the opposition can be so loud. I shouldn’t be amazed about that. But I am. If anyone wants to read my post they can click on my name it’s the post called “People”. (I’m not trying to plug my blog I swear.) (I doubt people are going to read ALL these comments to get to mine anyway)
Now to peek around your blog since it’s my first time here!
Dear Everyone,
I want to thank every single one of you for your comments on this post, and, most important, for being civil and respectful during your debates with each other. I will be writing a follow up post in the next day or two.
I want you to know that I received an e-mail from someone who does not live in the United States after they read this post, and in it, they said something to the effect of, “I guess Americans aren’t too bad.” Given previous sentiments expressed and the context, it was a compliment of the highest order.
I am proud of this comments section, and at the risk of sounding condescending, I am proud of you. All of you. It’s for this reason that I’m closing the comments out at this point in a few minutes.
I don’t want someone stumbling across it months from now and taking away from what we’ve done here: engage in a difficult and awkward discussion with tact and grace.
As I said, I will be writing a follow up post. If you feel that there’s something you absolutely MUST add, no problem, you can use the contact form to communicate it to me and I will post it for you. Or you can just comment on that post.
Again, thank you so much in participating in this.
[...] « Previous Home [...]
[...] Elephants in the room [...]
[...] then I read this post by my lovely friend, [...]